Buses - again!

[Old Cruser]

I am putting this in this section but have got over my ranting stage.
I am now into the constructive 'lets take this apart and see where the short falls are' stage.
We travelled on a bus into Chesterfield today with a wheelchair user.
It was a narrow pavement at the bus stop and I moved right out of the way as people were getting off.
I as looked on it was aware that the gap between the curb and bus looked too wide for a wheelchair.
I walked towards the bus entrance but the w/chair user was already getting on.
The front wheels got on but the back wheels wedge between the gap.
Hubby had to help the w/chair user to get onto the bus by slightly lifting the back of the chair (they are heavy!)
Going around the island into town the driver went too fast - the w/chair slewed to the left and caught a poor chap's legs.
The w/chair was switched off and at the point it was sliding I knew it was out of control of the user as it was actually switched off!
Although nothing was said it was obvious that it was thought to be the fault of the w/chair user!
When the bus stopped in Chesterfield evryone one else got off - I followed the last person.
Again i looked and thought that looks too far away again as people were still milling around I could do nothing - too late the w/chair user came off - pitched forward and the back wheels jammed into the gap between the bus and the curb.
Verbal annoyance came next between myself and the driver - who admitted they 'knew' it was too far away!
So why didn't they ask the w/chair user to wait until the distance had been rectified?
I suggested more training as they clearly have a problem with the distance parking.
The driver said I have to see it from 'their side' - which is???????
 In my opinion they can't safely transport w/chair users or park up a bus the correct distance needed from the  kerb.
So folks what is going on?
Maybe this is one for Scimitar but I certainly don't want to put anyone on the spot with this.
I also think that this is the same driver who I had the rant over last time, some of you may remember.
We all make mistakes but this was two parking mistakes plus a driving speed around a round about on one journey!
Do the drivers have mirrors to check the parking distance from bus to curbs?
what should there procedure be do you think if they are parked too far away from the curb?
Is it I will just let them have a go!
Training - are they assessed enough I am wondering or just put through it and out onto the roads.
I am seriously considering writing a - lets say 'constructive critisism letter' but also copying it to Derbyshire.
I tell you now this driver is seriously going to cause someone injury.
Whilst I don't want to create a situation whereas a person is put out of a job or suspended - neither do I want to stay quiet and then read of some terrible accident.
I would welcome your opinions on this one please.

[Fly]

If I'm not mistaken, all taxi drivers will have had to pass a Driving Standards Agency wheelchair course before 2014 if they are driving a wheelchair friendly cab. I drive a saloon car, but, should it break down and the only alternate vehicle for me was a wheelchair friendly cab, I'd be without a vehicle if I hadn't passed the DSA course.

@Scimitar, are there any similiar plans for bus drivers as you know of ?

[Slacker]

A couple of times this week I've seen buses on the 39 service following each other. They are supposed to be 7 minutes apart so I presume it's the front one running late. Surely it would make sense for one of them to hang on for 3 or 4 minutes?

[Old Cruser]

We get that sometimes slacker think it must be when there has been road work hold up or something.

I thought when I posted my last thread on this (temporary bus stop problem) scimitar had said that they do have to go on training - but are the staff assessed or spot checked on their capabilities or just left to get on with it.
Incompetant drivers who don't rectify their parking before letting people off are IMO a liability to the bus company.
Fly like you for my work i have had to be trained AND assessed and have been required to up date training on a regular basis - with follow up assessment!
Never did do my shackeling down as I went into semi retirement because of my parents health and I was needed to help them - but then again my car an estate has lightweight ramps for heavy w/chairs and I am trained for the moving and handling side of people and w/chairs - with assessments!
Bus drivers should be just as tightly regulated as taxi drivers!

[therealjr]

A couple of times this week I've seen buses on the 39 service following each other. They are supposed to be 7 minutes apart so I presume it's the front one running late. Surely it would make sense for one of them to hang on for 3 or 4 minutes?

Scimitar will no doubt be able to confirm this but I was once told by a Stagecoach bus driver that their 'effciency audits' rated them on what times they left their start point and what time they arrived at finish point. No checks on what time they reached individual stops. So if they were running late they were told to miss out stops and not go on to estates to pick up.

[Alsatian]

So if they were running late they were told to miss out stops and not go on to estates to pick up.

Oh for the days when they were known as Public Service Vehicles!

[therealjr]

Oh for the days when they were known as Public Service Vehicles!

this thread is only 6-7 posts old. Can't play the Mrs T card yet surely?

[Alsatian]

this thread is only 6-7 posts old. Can't play the Mrs T card yet surely?

No, not at all - just stating the years ago they provided a service to the community, whereas nowadays they seem to be there grudgingly (My Dad drove for EMMS and regularly picked passengers up outside their gates when on the Ashover service - and was given a box of eggs as a thank you!!).

[Scimitar]

Ok - sit back and read carefully.
All Stagecoach bus drivers have undertaken a 40 hour training course which covers everything from "Eco - friendly" driving, to dealing with unruly passengers, and the DDA (Disability Discrimination act).Etc...
We also have a system installed in our buses called Greenroad which monitors our driving via satelitte link to Head Office..Every driver - everywhere. This is to help reduce fuel costs, and fraudulent claims against the company for accidents that have not happened, yet claim to have.
I concede that at some bus stops, it can be quite difficult to park the bus in a way that a wheelchair user can get on or off - thats down to the skill of the bus driver- but most buses have ramps to assist the wheelchair user, and the wheelchair user will usually request its use, unless they can manage otherwise. The driver will oblige either way.
Disabled passengers have rules to adhere to as well. Their wheelchair should be placed to the back of the appointed rear support with the brakes on - understandably.I have not driven a bus yet when a wheelchair is moving around - that is not the bus drivers fault its the duty of the carer, or the user to secure the wheelchair.Assuming that the bus driver allows time for this, which of course he/she should.
Chesterfield (Stagecoach) was one of the first in the country to be totally disability compliant. All of our buses will take wheelchairs.
If the wheelchair is faulty (no brake applied) and moves around during normal driving, then it should not be on the bus as it is a danger to others, particularly young children in buggies which occupy the same part of the bus typically. Obviously the bus driver can't detect a wheelchair (electric or otherwise) which is potentially defective (i.e. insufficient brakes) when it boards.
Usually a bus driver can get within reasonable distance to a kerb to load or unload a wheelchair, unless something else is restricting the bus driver from access, for example another bus/vehicle restricting access to the delegated bus stand, but he/she will usually do their best.
All buses "kneel" to lower the front end, and have a ramp as well.
On another note, I know its daft when 2 buses come at the same time - its cos the first one is late, and the second one has caught it up.

[Scimitar]

Scimitar will no doubt be able to confirm this but I was once told by a Stagecoach bus driver that their 'effciency audits' rated them on what times they left their start point and what time they arrived at finish point. No checks on what time they reached individual stops. So if they were running late they were told to miss out stops and not go on to estates to pick up.

We have "timing points" on our running boards,thats not for every stop though- but God forbid you get caught leaving early - thats a punishable offence potentially. after all if the bus is supposed to be at your stop at 10 minutes past the hour, but went two minutes earlier.... We still have inspectors, who monitor these things, along with ticket abuse, as well as an onboard tracking system updated via satellite, although thats more for driver efficiency blah blah etc ...see Greenroad.com.

[Old Cruser]

Thanks for that enlightenment scimitar.

The wheelchair concerned is pretty new so has good tyres and shouldn't slide to the side.

Interesting though as a powered wheelchair user alone on the buses wouldn't neccessarly be able to apply one or both brakes - this means then that they should I suppose only travel with a carer?   In which case they lose their independance.

Not sure of the available space within the parking bay for the w/chair as to whether this is a possibilty for carers to put on the brakes - it may be a moving and handling issue as to the way a carer needs to reach over at an angle to apply them.
I have been told that not all drivers allow time for the w/chair to be parked up before moving off.

As I rarely travel on buses it is a new concern for me. and one only just come to my attention.

As for the ramp - no ramp was put down on either occassions despite the driver admitting they knew the bus was too far from the kerb, is this then maybe a pressure of time on the driver?
I cannot say how difficult it was for the bus to be parked safely for a wheelchair user to get off/on but I can add that on the way back I requested the driver to move the bus closer to the kerb which they did but then the bus floor ended up over the kerb  once lowered which created a different problem-
Thank you for the  answers scimitar it is always useful to have feed back from someone who is more familiar with what needs to be done.
I am thinking then that signs on buses and verbal communication is needed from drivers telling wheelchair users that they shouldn't be using the bus if they can't apply brakes -would you agree?
 

[Scimitar]

I can't speak for every driver of course - there are good and bad in every profession - but, in my experience, a wheelchair user (powered or not) will know themselves if they need to use the ramp. In fact some will request the ramp when they don't really need it, but we as drivers will oblige anyway - imagine the fuss if we refused!!
The majority of bus stops (specially town centre) are raised so that when the driver "kneels" the bus, it is more or less level with the kerb. Usually powered wheelchair users without  a carer know what their requirements in terms of assistance from the bus driver. However, unpowered wheelchair users accompanied by someone else tend to assess the situation for themselves.
I can't comprehend the fact that this powered wheelchair you refer to, was moving around when the bus was cornering. They must have a braking system on them surely - lets face it, if there wasn't one, and the batteries failed, there would be a runaway wheelchair - not good for the occupier, or who they crash in to.
There are even now some electric buggies allowed on buses (based on size - not the "road worthy" ones with headlights), but the user has to pass an instruction course on using the bus, and is issud with a card once they have passed. They then have to produce this card every time they get on the bus. As yet, I have not had one of these - I think the front end of the bus is complicated enough with baby buggies competing for space, as well as wheelchairs - and now electric buggies.
One thing worries me - despite the courses I have been on - no one seems to be able to clarify the the position regarding who has priority regarding baby buggies and wheelchair users. I can remember being told on one of the first courses I attended 4-5 yrs ago that under the DDA act, wheelchair users have priority over baby buggies. In other words, if you have a baby buggy occupying a wheelchair space and a wheelchair user wants to board (assuming there is no where else for the baby buggy to be relocated because of other buggies being carried) the wheelchair user has priority. So you then have to tell the person with the buggy to take the baby out and fold up the buggy, stow it safely, to allow the wheelchair access.Or if they are not prepared to do that, they should be politely asked to exit the bus in order to allow wheelchair access. Luckily, I've not had to deal with this one, and on later courses the goalposts moved until it became a sort of "don't know, I'll get back to you on this one"
Still unclear.
Isn't red tape amazin!!
I think I may have to re-visit the DDA and have a read - and then a lie down

[Old Cruser]

I wouldn't like to be the one to ask the toddler and mum to leave the bus in favour of a wheelchair user scimitar - that's just not right is it. I suppose it's difficult for the driver to keep tabs on who is occupying which space. There is a blue badge sign on one side of the bus and I was told that 'that was where the wheelchair user had to go' rather than i suppose on the other side which has equal (I think) space.
The DDA is quite a strong force these days - but we have to have common sense when using it I would think.

The only other reason I can think of with the slewing to one side of the wheelchair was because the floor was quite wet, and I do know from experience that on certain surfaces the wheels can spin a bit - just something to throw into the pot.
yes the wheelchairs all have a braking system on them, unfortunately some of the ones I have come across are situated more to the back of the wheelchair rather than at the sides thus making it more difficult to be reached by some users. Maybe it's because of the size of the w/chairs - who knows !!

There is always more than one side and way of looking at situations isn't there - it's been enlightening to hear it from a real live 'on the buses person' 

Thanks 

[Scimitar]

Its a pleasure.I'll comment on any subject, unless I feel that I don't know enough about it.
As you can see, we have all this to deal with, oh and then theres the driving bit, sticking to timetables, ungrateful grumpy customers(usually the ones who don't have to pay - I kid you not), people in cars who insist on driving straight at buses when its my right of way.
Still I keep smiling, and generally have a laugh with my customers if I can - some are immune to it but most appreciate it, and Ive not been attacked physically (verbally yes) yet.
By the way, stagecoach has a website which includes interesting information about "conditions of carriage", Lost Property, etc here  http://www.stagecoachbus.com/customerservices.aspx

[Old Cruser]

Thanks for the link I will have a look at that.
Also seems that every other form of public transport, taxis, trains, aircraft, ships are given assistance for the less physically able and w/chair users but on buses it is left to the individual to sort themselves out.
Would you think a timetable which is not so tight for the drivers would be helpful?